Pip Pip

I can't think of much tbh that the EU legislates that personally affects my daily life. I think they legislated regulation when it came to certain food products, but other than that I don't know what they really legislate. It's the situation in Greece, but maybe they are financially incompetent. Sorry Greece.

The EU isn't that powerful of an organization, I think. Each member state run their country as they normally would, otherwise the eastern european countries would have been forced to take more refugees.

The thing that I see that would be bad is if all the money/wealth/jobs is transfered to central Europe and the rest of us get poorer, but I don't see that happening as long as each country keep their individuality.

United States of Europe would be really weird, seeing as each country is so very different culturally.

Primate @ 11/3/2018 12:55

Of course, we have a businessman playing at politics now. Which seems to be even worse.

A poor businessman at that. There's a reason he had to go to Russian banks to get any investments

How do you think the leaders of the EU get there Mike? Do you imagine it to be a special club run by the illuminati.

Ah, now you casually insinuate Leave voters are conspiracy theorist nut jobs.

Excellent strawman argument you have there!

It's not about how I think the leaders get there, it's how I know they get there. New leaders are nominated by the European council and elected by Parliament. Where do ordinary people get their say in that situation?

The most say we get is electing largely powerless MEP's.

Anyway, given you've acknowledged it's undemocratic, I can only assume that you don't put much stock in democracy!

Mike @ 11/3/2018 20:27

You've yet to respond to the questions I posed to you. Darkus, it's not about the individuals who happen to be in charge now, it's about the system itself. Why should we forgo our current system of government, in which we can elect our leaders, for one in which we can't? The mistakes the EU leadership has made over the past few decades are: - The single currency - Free movement - Common Agricultural Policy - Accepting Greece into the EU - Their complete failure during the migrant crisis - Imposition of austerity on Greek people - Their complete lack of respect for the desires of the people of the member states You seem to be missing my point. Even if the current leadership of the EU had done nothing wrong at all, what assurances does that give us for the future? Who knows who will be running things 20, 30 years down the line? And again, I ask the question, how will we hold those people to account? There is no system in place to do so.

Frankly, it's set up not all that different from how our Senate used to be, but if you want it to be more democratic, leaving is not a great solution; it's very hard to fix an organization from outside.

The common currency is actually a huge benefit. Yes, it means individual countries have to cede central bank control, which means they can't play with the money supply as individual nations, but the UK never ceded to this anyway so this missed the benefits. Hell- there was nothing more frustrating than driving from Ireland into Northern Ireland and having to hit a cash machine; the only people getting an advantage with different currencies are the banks and money changers who charge a fee on top of it. The people who argue losing central bank control of the money supply also tend to be the people who say that the central bank shouldn't be manipulating the money supply, so I've never been able to understand why they consider this a bad thing.

Free movement? That shit is fantastic. Used to be I could head into Canada or Mexico with a state ID, but September 11 forced us to get passports for that shit. I've also never understood the people who want free markets for goods but not for human capital.

I'll pop into some of the other arguments later, but will leave you with this because I thought it was funny as hell:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/features/things-brexiters-are-nostalgic-for-that-were-actually-bollocks-20180312145776

Mike @ 12/3/2018 14:06

Ah, now you casually insinuate Leave voters are conspiracy theorist nut jobs. Excellent strawman argument you have there! It's not about how I think the leaders get there, it's how I know they get there. New leaders are nominated by the European council and elected by Parliament. Where do ordinary people get their say in that situation? The most say we get is electing largely powerless MEP's. Anyway, given you've acknowledged it's undemocratic, I can only assume that you don't put much stock in democracy!

How do members of the European council get there? Illuminati?

I am just trying to get to the bottom of it.

Meh, obvious troll.

Will respond to Vlady though

vladykins @ 12/3/2018 9:49

Mike @ 11/3/2018 20:27 You've yet to respond to the questions I posed to you. Darkus, it's not about the individuals who happen to be in charge now, it's about the system itself. Why should we forgo our current system of government, in which we can elect our leaders, for one in which we can't? The mistakes the EU leadership has made over the past few decades are: - The single currency - Free movement - Common Agricultural Policy - Accepting Greece into the EU - Their complete failure during the migrant crisis - Imposition of austerity on Greek people - Their complete lack of respect for the desires of the people of the member states You seem to be missing my point. Even if the current leadership of the EU had done nothing wrong at all, what assurances does that give us for the future? Who knows who will be running things 20, 30 years down the line? And again, I ask the question, how will we hold those people to account? There is no system in place to do so. Frankly, it's set up not all that different from how our Senate used to be, but if you want it to be more democratic, leaving is not a great solution; it's very hard to fix an organization from outside. The common currency is actually a huge benefit. Yes, it means individual countries have to cede central bank control, which means they can't play with the money supply as individual nations, but the UK never ceded to this anyway so this missed the benefits. Hell- there was nothing more frustrating than driving from Ireland into Northern Ireland and having to hit a cash machine; the only people getting an advantage with different currencies are the banks and money changers who charge a fee on top of it. The people who argue losing central bank control of the money supply also tend to be the people who say that the central bank shouldn't be manipulating the money supply, so I've never been able to understand why they consider this a bad thing. Free movement? That shit is fantastic. Used to be I could head into Canada or Mexico with a state ID, but September 11 forced us to get passports for that shit. I've also never understood the people who want free markets for goods but not for human capital. I'll pop into some of the other arguments later, but will leave you with this because I thought it was funny as hell: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/features/things-brexiters-are-nostalgic-for-that-were-actually-bollocks-20180312145776

I'm entirely ignorant of the history of the US political system, but would you argue that it was ever less democratic than the EU in its current state?

It's worth stating that I have no interest in seeing the EU reform at this point. It's had every opportunity to do so and just continues on the same path. Euroscepticism is on the rise everywhere, but the leadership still seem entirely uninterested in reform. We've tried fixing it from the inside. I honestly think it's time for the EU to go. I'm all for a free trade area, but that's all.

I'll be honest, if we're gonna talk economics, I'm not exactly well informed in that department...but here we go regardless.

From what I've seen, common currency has been nothing but a disaster. The countries that were already rich before common currency got richer, like Germany, and those who were poorer became worse off. Countries like Spain and Greece, which rely on tourism for a lot of income, suddenly couldn't sell their goods cheaper to other Europeans, because their currency suddenly had the same value.

And I think the crisis in Greece, whatever blame could fairly be attached to the leadership for the crisis in the first place, was amplified by the fact that they couldn't debase their currency to try and inject some life into their economy.

And I think there is a world of difference between goods and people when it comes to free movement. How could there not be? Unrestricted movement of people raises all sorts of compilations, especially within something like the EU, where the member states are so dramatically uneven in terms of prosperity.

People come with all sorts of baggage. They need to be housed, they need healthcare, they need jobs etc. And you can only build so many houses and hospitals at once, so if you've got more people coming in than you can provide for, surely there has to be restrictions in place. For everyone's benefit. I think free movement has played a part in crippling the NHS, as it encourages health tourism.

Don't get me wrong, the prospect of going anywhere within the EU hassle free is nice, but all the problems associated with free movement outweigh it dramatically.

I speak so much of the problems with the EU, but I've never got around to asking what benefits it actually brings.

Does anybody here want to see a United states of Europe. I mean, that isn't a conspiracy theory, that has been the end goal of the EU from its inception.

I'm not trolling. You said it was undemocratic. So let's unravel it.

How do members of the European council get on the council?

Also thanks for reminding me of Tripe. I read Road to Wigan Pier recently and that was mentioned all the time. Made me SICK!

And yes, a united states of the world should be the ultimate goal

Also, way to blame the brown people for crippling the NHS rather than the government. You are just regurgitating the national front and UKIP.

And here we see the biggest issue with brexiteers:

"I'll be honest, if we're gonna talk economics, I'm not exactly well informed in that department..."