Can I post in this thread, or am I a traitor?

Once a snowman, always a snowman Merc

I'll now post here instead of the America thread, seems more reasonable.

The Brexit thing seems like a bit of a headache, the UK is definitely leaving but it seems to be an endless struggle how you're going to leave. Your country still wants to be part of the EU market and it seems extremely complicated. You guys have definitely signed to leave in a few years, right? I think they said so on the news here a while back. Theresa May went and signed stuff.

Interestingly enough, EU is not even a subject of debate here. No one here wants the EU to become like a United States 2.0 here with central power in Brussel, though. It's election year this year though. Health care, immigration, crime and security and housing seem to be some of the major issues here, though.

Free movement seems to be the main reason you guys broke free from the EU, right? I feel like that is going to change relatively soon.

Wikey

Also, I think it's time that we had a constitution in Britain, with a first amendment style law on free speech. We've got people getting arrested for jokes over here now.

You mean racist jokes? I think you can be fined for hate speech here, but I don't think they can arrest you for it.

PC culture exists here too, though, and it's getting on people's nerves more and more. Everyone I know dislikes the censorship that's going on here lol, not sure what's going to happen with that.

vladykins @ 10/3/2018 13:02

Mike @ 10/3/2018 12:56 jme @ 10/3/2018 12:23 what about canadians where do we stand in terms of being allowed in this thread I will make an exception for Canadians. But does anything happen there? Maple syrup

Nickelback

Hetm @ 11/3/2018 0:05

The Brexit thing seems like a bit of a headache, the UK is definitely leaving but it seems to be an endless struggle how you're going to leave. Your country still wants to be part of the EU market and it seems extremely complicated. You guys have definitely signed to leave in a few years, right? I think they said so on the news here a while back. Theresa May went and signed stuff.

Yes, article 50 has been signed, but Parliament will now have a vote on whether to accept the terms of the final deal negoatiated with the EU. If Parliament rejects the final deal (and I think they almost certainly will) it is hard to say where we would go from there. A general election may be on the cards, or a second referendum.

I honestly don't think Brexit needs to be the headache that it has turned out to be. The main reason things have been difficult so far are:

- There's still widespread opposition to Brexit in Parliament
- The EU are playing hard ball in negotiations. It is not in their interest to give us a good deal
- Our current leadership is too weak to take the EU to task in negotiations. We hold a lot of cards but we aren't playing them

Hetm @ 11/3/2018 0:05

Interestingly enough, EU is not even a subject of debate here. No one here wants the EU to become like a United States 2.0 here with central power in Brussel, though. It's election year this year though. Health care, immigration, crime and security and housing seem to be some of the major issues here, though.

It surprises me that you say there isn't a debate on the EU in Sweden. I would have expected oterwise, given how it seems to be happening everywhere else in Europe. Aside from leaving the EU, those issues you describe are generally the big ones over here too.

Hetm @ 11/3/2018 0:05

Free movement seems to be the main reason you guys broke free from the EU, right? I feel like that is going to change relatively soon.

Free movement played a major part, and I think the migrant crisis exposed all the flaws in that concept.

Personally, my main reason for voting leave is due to how undemocratic the EU is. All the other issues tie in with that really.

Hetm @ 11/3/2018 0:05

You mean racist jokes? I think you can be fined for hate speech here, but I don't think they can arrest you for it.

Fining is bad enough imo, but yeah, we've literally had cases of people getting arrested for jokes. And yes, most often racist ones, but jokes nonetheless. Some are facing prison time, or have already served.

The best example of this; A Scottish guy was arrested for doing a dumb video in which he taught his girlfriend's dog to Zieg Heil for treats. He also got it to respond to him whenever he said 'Gas the Jews'. Whatever your opinion on edgy jokes, that's all it was, but despite that, he has been on trial for nearly three years now, on the charge of hate speech. He could face eight months in prison.

And someone in my town was arrested for trolling online.

The laws on hate speech are so vague and ill defined and they are rife for abuse.

Mike @ 11/3/2018 2:59

I look forward to us been free from the EU, simple as that really! I honestly think we should have more referendums in this country. Maybe every five years or so, on all manner of things. We should have a referendum on whether to abolish the house of lords or not next. Or on legalising drugs

This is a naïve and stupid answer.

Free from what? Travel? Work? Opportunities? Protection? Brown people?


You are probably super working class so you won't really notice the effects of this mess right now. It's going to be hilarious when it finally hits the bottom because there are a bunch of people in it right now working to solve it for themselves. The life rafts are leaving and you aren't on them sadly.

To elaborate, it is freedom from the centralisation of unaccountable power in Brussels that I and a lot of Leave voters want.

The way the EU operates is completely undemocratic, and if we were to stay within it, we would come to lose something that people in this country fought for hundreds of years to acquire; a meaningful vote.

You can't hold the leaders of the EU to account because they are not elected by the people.

Sure, we can elect MEP's, but they are effectively powerless. The European Parliament only has the power to scrutinise legislation. Legislation is made by the Commission. They are required by law to allow Parliament to assess the legislation, but they are not legally obliged to take account of Parliament's opinion.

So essentially, we have a house of unelected bureaucrats passing legislation which sometimes directly effects us, and we can do nothing about it.

To contrast that with our own system, it would be like the House of Lords in the UK proposing all of the legislation, and the Commons only being able to scrutinise it. In effect, their respective roles, and most importantly, their amount of power, would be reversed. Unelected lords ruling over us, with no way for us to hold them to account.

In this country, if we don't like what our leaders are doing, we can remove them at the ballot box. How exactly do we remove unwanted leaders in the EU? How would we get rid of the likes of Juncker? We certainly can't vote him out.

Some remainers acknowledge that the EU is flawed. During the referendum they argued that we should remain in the EU and push for reform. But there have been countless attempts to reform the EU, and they have all failed, in large part because the leaders are unaccountable.

Our system of government is in every way superior to the EU. I would gladly trade opportunities to travel and work in the EU to maintain it. (travel and work abroad are luxuries few can afford anyway). But let's do away with this mentality that if we leave the EU we are closing ourselves off to Europe. The EU is not Europe.

Speaking of protection, what protections has the EU granted us exactly? If you are referring to military protection, we are one of the few member states with a proper military. And besides, NATO and Trident offer us far better protection than the EU.

If you mean protection in the form of legislation, we had those protections before the EU was even a thing.

And if you mean protection in the form of trade, I gotta say, the free trade with the EU isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure, within the EU itself trade is very free. But from the outside looking in, it's the most insular trading bloc in the world.

There is no reason, other than the stubbornness of the EU, that we couldn't have free trade with them, and be free from them. There are plenty of countries around the world we can trade with. We don't need the EU.

And protection from brown people? Well, some remainers can't help but make the insinuation that leave voters are racist Little Englander's. I'm not suggesting that's what you were insinuating, but it's a common theme I've noticed!

Btw, I am from a working class background (born on a council estate) but I wouldn't say I'm 'really working class'. Low Mid maybe.

But even if I was, what are you suggesting. That working class people are too dumb to understand the finer implications of Brexit?

It's funny, you seem to be suggesting that it's hitting more successful people at the moment, but that it is going to trickle down over time. Yet all we hear on the news is that Brexit is going to hit the worst off the most.

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on the negative effects that you have noticed.

I honestly think you need to have more faith in our country. We are one of the strongest economies in the world.

One last thing: Are you getting on one of the life rafts Darkus, or do you plan to stay in the country? I'm curious

There is a lot to cover there. Let's drill into it a bit at a time.

What have the EU specifically done that means we need to worry about it? What specific legislation is a problem?

If the UK is in such a position of military and rconomic strength, how come they couldn't strongarm the EU and enact change?

The American left pulls out the racist thing when they can't come up with a cogent argument, too. Disappointed that darkus went to that tact on the first post. That's just lazy.

Also did the UK have talks with other trade orgs, nations etc to get contingency agreements in the works before they announced the exit, or was it more of a power play, or just pure impulse pandering that brought it through?

Primate @ 11/3/2018 12:01

Also did the UK have talks with other trade orgs, nations etc to get contingency agreements in the works before they announced the exit, or was it more of a power play, or just pure impulse pandering that brought it through?

Impulse pandering.

Primate @ 11/3/2018 16:58

The American left pulls out the racist thing when they can't come up with a cogent argument, too. Disappointed that darkus went to that tact on the first post. That's just lazy.

Umm. That was a huge part of the brexit nonsense. People were openly being racist in the streets telling brown faced people that they need to go home.

It actually happened.