Most people in my country want to remain. It's just the two fringe left-right sides who want to leave.
I'm fine with the EU.
I guess the critics want to leave since it's affected the labor market, people from other countries doing the same job, making it harder for working people to support themselves with the same kind of job.
As a whole, it's better to remain than to run things independently imo.
I'm still not sure if it's worth having the same currency and same economic systems, economics is just so hard to know what's best overall in that regard.
I guess the critics want to leave since it's affected the labor market, people from other countries doing the same job, making it harder for working people to support themselves with the same kind of job.
This is presumably only true for unskilled labour though. I doubt plumbers or electricians are being put out of work by EU nationals. And even then I don't think there's a great number of EU migrants coming into the UK to perform unskilled labour.
The problems are at home, with the UK's actual government and not through any decisions made in Brussels or otherwise. The problems are with the education system which is failing young people and causing them to enter the workplace unskilled. The problem is with outsourcing industry and even services to foreign agencies, a decision which has nothing to do with the EU and has been pushed by our own government for decades.
Leaving the EU will not fix these problems, it will make them twice as bad. The EU is actually providing sensible guidelines that govern and protect workers' rights and are looking to bring in tax laws that will see the likes of some of the shadier figures involved in the Leave campaign have some very unfortunate auditing, so for them it's a race against the clock.
Whilst we can have all of the above as a sovereign nation, we don't currently have the framework to support it and I don't believe we're in a fit state as a nation to rebuild that outside of the EU.
There's a good video that was released about the whole idea of falsely framing the EU as the cause of all problems the other day which summarises it quite well:
It's a tried and tested rhetoric that has been deployed countlessly throughout history. The individual problems are complex so let's distract away from our own failings as an institution by providing some big "Other" to battle. That'll keep the plebs busy for a while.
I'm from Sweden by the way, and we're not swexiting anytime soon.
Everyone's paying attention to what's happening in your country though, are you going to come out on the other side okay or is there going to be negative side effects.
Unskilled labour probably aren't affected that much either, although I guess it depends which country you're living in and what kind of business you're trying to work in lol.
I'll get into individual rebutalls to the nonesense over time.
Title of this thread is just a play on the 'Congrats America' thread. As for rebuttals to the nonsense, I welcome them. Love u Porl, it's about time a fellow Brit chimed in on this from the remain perspective. (Darkus doesn't count, he's Welsh, and doesn't argue in good faith.)
There's a good video that was released about the whole idea of falsely framing the EU as the cause of all problems the other day which summarises it quite well:
It's a tried and tested rhetoric that has been deployed countlessly throughout history. The individual problems are complex so let's distract away from our own failings as an institution by providing some big "Other" to battle. That'll keep the plebs busy for a while.
Ironically, this video is an example of exactly what you just described. It could just as easily be said that the Pro-EU folk are distracting from its failings as an organisation by pointing to some big other to blame; in this case Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg and The Daily Fail.
I'm really bored of this narrative. This whole “We don’t hate you Leave voters, it's just that you were fooled by the big bad man over there” It's condescending.
I suppose it's a step up from 'You're all racist, bigots and fascists." Actually yeah, it's much better.
Anyway, the few arguments presented in the vid weren't all that compelling. And the anti-EU arguments they didn't engage with very telling. They basically picked the weakest, dumbest Leave points and presented that as if it was the Leave case. An excellent example of Forced Perspective from Stephen Fry there!
The biggest problem with this whole discourse is systematic of a problem that's ocurring in debating in general, that everything is getting distilled to banal arguments, ad hominem attacks and whataboutism (which is the absolute worst).
People on both sides seem quite eager to ignore actual factual evidence when it doesn't suit an agenda.
I think ultimately it comes down to whether or not you feel that bigger unions of nations are good or not. I lean towards good, purely because I'm very aware that in the next 50-odd years there will be some bigger problems humanity needs to deal with than "identity" and "sovereignety".
I think we're pretty much fucked as a species unless we collaborate more, not less.
To get onto a more positive discourse, let's start at the beginning. Wikey what do you dislike about the EU? You may have already covered it in the 15 or so pages but I'm asking you now in present times. What about the institution upsets or troubles you that you'd be willing to risk potential economic collapse to get the fuck away from it all?
I do intend to reply to you dude, just a bit pushed for time at the min. You're right about the discourse though, it's rare to see people have a sensible debate on this. Each side seems to assume the absolute worst of the other.
Most people in my country want to remain. It's just the two fringe left-right sides who want to leave.
I'm fine with the EU.
I guess the critics want to leave since it's affected the labor market, people from other countries doing the same job, making it harder for working people to support themselves with the same kind of job.
As a whole, it's better to remain than to run things independently imo.
If you'd leave an join EFTA, like Iceland and Norway, you'd still have free movement of labor.
Most people in my country want to remain. It's just the two fringe left-right sides who want to leave.
I'm fine with the EU.
I guess the critics want to leave since it's affected the labor market, people from other countries doing the same job, making it harder for working people to support themselves with the same kind of job.
As a whole, it's better to remain than to run things independently imo.
If you'd leave an join EFTA, like Iceland and Norway, you'd still have free movement of labor.
Hm, maybe it's not necessary to be in Schengen to be in EFTA, but all of the states are.
To get onto a more positive discourse, let's start at the beginning. Wikey what do you dislike about the EU? You may have already covered it in the 15 or so pages but I'm asking you now in present times. What about the institution upsets or troubles you that you'd be willing to risk potential economic collapse to get the fuck away from it all?
For me, the democratic argument won me over more than anything else. All other issues are secondary, and most are tied in with that.
The EU, if not completely undemocratic, is at the very least an inferior system to our own. I always point to the respective powers of the the Commission vs the EU Parliament as a good example of this. The unelected Commission is far more powerful than the elected Parliament.
Compared to national the parliaments of member states, the respective powers are the complete wrong way round. Imagine if our House of Lords was as powerful as the Commission, and our Parliament as weak as the EU one. Would that be a situation we'd be happy with? I don't think so. So why would we be tolerate it within the EU?
I think it's incredibly important to have the ability to hold your leaders to account. Hardly a controversial position, I know...but when I look at the EU, I don't see how we could directly remove the likes of Juncker and Tusk from power. And looking at the history of the EU, it seems to be littered with examples of outright hostility to the democratic process.
I could talk about the single currency, the austerity imposed on the poorer countries of the Union such as Greece, Italy and Spain, the atrocious management of the migrant crisis etc etc, but I won't. I always end up coming back to the sovereignty argument. It's the most important one by far.
And if you're asking whether getting away from that is worth risking economic collapse, well I suppose I'd say yes.
Though I should stress I don't think leaving the EU will lead to economic collapse. I will concede that we are going to be potentially in for a difficult time in the event of no deal, but that's less to do with Brexit itself and more to do with the fact that the government never prepared for the eventuality. They've been negotiating on the assumption that we would get a good deal, but that was never going to happen, at least not the way they negotiated. If we wanted to get a good deal out of the EU, we should have made it clear that no deal was a real prospect if they were gonna fuck with us. It's too late for that now, and I believe we are either heading for no deal, or remain by another name. Given that choice, I absolutely want no deal.
If we don't leave, then we might as well do away with voting. Completely pointless, and a good demonstration of why we voted to leave in the first place.
