Had a feeling this wasn't going to end here. Weinstein and Spacey now.

This is eerily similar to what happened over here in the UK after Jimmy Savile died. (If you don't know anything about Jimmy Savile, google him...or don't, spare yourself the disgust, the guy was a complete cunt.)

Anyway, long story short: One major public figure was accused of sex crimes going back decades, and what followed was a year or so of constant accusations against other high profile figures.

Lots of innocent people had their reputations ruined and lost their jobs due to false allegations. And the irresponsible media whipped the whole thing up into a frenzy. Maybe one or two genuine offenders came to light throughout.

Anyways, yeah, looks like a similar situation developing in USA. I reckon this is just getting started. Oh boy. Doesn't help that Hollywood already has a seedy reputation. And given your media appear more reckless and sensationalist, I reckon this could get pretty crazy.

Conspiracy of silence is what allows these shits to get away with it.

I don't get it, sexual abuse seems to be an inside joke with a lot of the people in the know, and none of them name names. Nobody comes forward.

No doubt because they fear their power, but srsly. What would stop a bunch of high profile celebrities who knew someone was dodgy all banding together to call them out?

don't get it.

The silver lining of the Spacey revelations; House of Cards Season 6 will be the last

Ima stop now.

I'm sure this is going to be a fun filled thread and not at all controversial.

Wikey @ 30/10/2017 16:40

Ima stop now. I'm sure this is going to be a fun filled thread and not at all controversial.

heh

How is Igor sexist tho?

I don't there is a single member here I dislike.

Sucks to see you guys fighting tbh!

FUCK YOU FORESNAFFLE

YOU ARE NOW MY ENEMY

Whilst I agree Igor was acting like a dick earlier (sorry bud), nothing he has said even slightly suggests that he is sexist and I find the accusation ridiculous. That accusation really holds no weight anymore given how wantonly it is thrown around.

I actually agree with a lot of what Igor has said over the past few pages. Guess I must be sexist too!

I am also concerned about the danger of false accusations. However, just because I am concerned about false accusations, doesn't mean I can't be supportive towards potential victims and want to see justice served.

I don't think anybody here disagrees that this abuse happens, nor that rich, powerful people have a tendency to get away with it (What crime do you not have a better chance of getting away with if you have money and influence?).

But personally I'm a little disturbed that some people appear to be fine with doing away with the presumption of innocence, as if it's just another obstacle the powerful use to obstruct justice, and not a basic legal right that protects us all.

I appreciate sexual abuse isn't an easy crime to prove, and there are a whole variety of reasons people don't come forward. But what are we supposed to do if not operate under the presumption of innocence toward the accused? Are we supposed to listen and believe instead?

I'm sure most of you would at least accept the possibility that some accusers will lie. Which leads me to ask; do you think it is an acceptable trade off that some people could have their lives ruined by false accusations if some genuine offenders are brought to justice?

There is something oddly appropriate happening in the UK right now which perfectly illustrates how ridiculous these things can become when presumption of innocence is sidestepped and given over to mob rule.

Tonight, the Defense Secretary resigned amid allegations that he placed a hand on a female journalists knee, 15 years ago. And the Deputy PM stands accused of the same thing, on top of sending a lurid text message (Oh the horror!). The latter accusation came from someone using the #MeToo hashtag.

It is true that to the rich and powerful, the law doesn't always apply, and I don't doubt that a lot of people are getting away with some heinous shit. But does that mean we should resort to what is essentially mob justice and trial by media?

meh

One more thing: I find the statement 'teach men not to rape' as pointless as 'teach men not to kill' Men know rape is wrong.

K bye

Yeah I was in the middle of responding to Vlady/DD but I was interrupted.

And now Question Time / This Week is on so I'm gonna have to post it later!

BB

LOL at moving this thread to Sports Thread. Appropriate

@DD, I appreciate what you are saying, but I don't see how bringing up the prospect of false accusations is shifting the focus. With any other crime, it is always considered that the allegations may be false. Why should sexual abuse be the exception?

@Vlady, sorry to hear about your own personal experiences with people who have suffered abuse, that sucks, and I appreciate that you are passionate on this subject.

Your story about the 'huggy' priest reminded me of a teacher I had in high school. It was only one incident, but I remembered it all these years. I was at an end of term celebration or some crap like that, and the teacher in question asked me and my friend if we were gay, given that we spent so much time together. He seemed rather, ahem, interested in our sexuality. I wasn't old enough at the time to appreciate that he was being a creep. But when I found out years later that he was sent to prison for diddling young boys, I can't say I was surprised. What a cunt!

Anyway, now that’s out of the way, I have some issues with some things you have said…

Your claim that every woman on this board will have a story of sexual harassment is rather bold. Though I guess that depends on your definition of harassment.

vladykins @ 2/11/2017 13:48

The only way this gets fixed culturally is if you shine a light on it. No, it's not as simple as "teach not to rape." It goes into our entertainment as well. I have a really hard time with classic horror tropes that focus on women and children being hounded by a killer. It's not only become cliche but it is also disturbing if that is the only way the writers can put across "terror". It also goes into regular shows. I hated so much that Mulder and Scully ever got shipped. The show started with two strong characters, who just happened to be male and female, working together professionally, despite their differences in outlook. The fact they had to develop a romantic element at all is ridiculous- almost like our society can't handle men and women being together professionally without having to jump into the sack. THIS is part of the culture that needs changed,

Come on man, for real? Mulder and Scully getting intimate is part of some great cultural problem? That’s silly. What does that have to do with powerful people committing sexual abuse? Besides, it’s hard to believe we have a cultural problem with the way men and women are portrayed on TV when we have massively popular shows like Orange is the New Black on the air.

But let’s say it is a problem…what exactly would your solution be?

vladykins @ 2/11/2017 13:48

Moreso, if people get punished....really punished, then the #NotAllMen guys who think they are the "nice guy" but treat women differently than they do men may think twice. If the fear of being "falsely accused" creates this much fear in a guy, then imagine what it is like to be a woman deals with fear on an often daily basis. Hell, I imagine most guys on here who are at a bar who have to hit the bathroom get up from their seat, head to the bathroom, (hopefully wash their hands), then return to their drink. They probably have no idea that a woman can't do that- they have to have someone watch their drink while they are gone or get a new drink. Otherwise, someone is gonna slip something in their drink. That's one of the many stories of things that have happened to my wife and she's lucky she had people she trusted with her at the time.

I have not heard of the #NotAllMen guys, so I can't really address your point there.

As for the drink thing...well....if any guy thinks they can leave their drink unattended at a bar, they are stupid. Out of all the dangers women exclusively face you could have picked, I’m surprised you chose that. Men can and have had their drinks spiked.

vladykins @ 2/11/2017 13:58

men do not realize how embedded some of the behavior is. Again, bringing up the UK Defense Minister touching a woman journalist's knee. Dudes say "That's not rape- this is no big deal!" except for the fact that it is. He'd *never* have done that to a dude, ever. And if a dude did it to him, he'd have freaked the fuck out.

Unless of course, the Defense secretary was gay. Then perhaps he would have done that to a dude.

I’m not saying it isn’t sleazy or inappropriate. But it’s not sexual assault, nor harassment. And when you conflate it with something so serious, I think you marginalize real victims.

Some general things:

- Going by the standards of what constitutes sexual harassment to some of you, I’d say women are just as bad as men!

- It would seem some of you think women are incapable of looking after themselves. The idea that a woman has been victimized when a man puts a hand on her knee is ludicrous to me. As far as I’m concerned, women are perfectly capable of looking after themselves in situations like that. Simply tell the guy to fuck off, put him in his place.

- I keep seeing you guys mention the ‘cultural issue’. What is this cultural problem exactly? What needs to change? What about our culture is so awful that needs changing...other than fictional characters fucking each other?

Nofo @ 3/11/2017 9:23

I think this thread is proof that we need moderation around here. This isn't a welcoming community.

Expert trolling

Edge @ 2/11/2017 20:08

I think you guys are offended by empathy.

Not sure if this was aimed at me, but just because I have a different opinion on this topic doesn't mean I lack empathy.

Edge @ 2/11/2017 23:09

Wikey the bold statement is thinking that the three or four women on this board wouldn't have a story about some guy being a handsy creep.

I'll grant you that. Vlady was probably only referring to the three or four active female users on the site, in which case it is more probable that they have experienced at least one instance of harassment. Fair enough.

Maddie @ 2/11/2017 23:23

Wikey @ 2/11/2017 22:11 As far as I’m concerned, women are perfectly capable of looking after themselves in situations like that. Simply tell the guy to fuck off, put him in his place. Yeah that's great and all, but half the time they don't fuck off. Half the time they laugh and make some comment about us getting "too emotional." Half the time they only fuck off if you lie and tell them you have a boyfriend.

And in the situation you describe, that probably would constitute harassment, sure, I agree. But in the incident involving the UK Defense Minister, we are talking about an advance he made, which was then rejected. And that appears to be the end of the story.

Surely it can only become harassment if after having made it clear to them you aren't interested, they continue. Like in the example you gave.

Btw, my point about minor things like this marginalizing real victims wasn't based off of nothing. In the UK, everybody is distracted by the flurry of minor accusations been made about knee touching and what not, to the point that everybody seems to be forgetting an actual rape allegation was made against a Labor MP.

JJ @ 3/11/2017 0:46

Wikey @ 2/11/2017 22:11 As for the drink thing...well....if any guy thinks they can leave their drink unattended at a bar, they are stupid. Out of all the dangers women exclusively face you could have picked, I’m surprised you chose that. Men can and have had their drinks spiked. Yes, I'm sure it has happened to men, too, but it's pretty silly to say it isn't usually women this happens to. And this was just one isolated example.

I don't think I said anywhere that it isn't usually women that it happens to. In fact, I'm partial to agree that women are the most likely victims of sexual assault / harassment

JJ @ 3/11/2017 0:46

And whether it's a "hand on the knee" or something else, if it's unwelcome and uninvited, it's not okay. Period.

Sorry, I just disagree. It might not be appropriate, but there is a chance the woman might reciprocate. If she tells the man to stop and he doesn't, only then is it harassment.

Edge @ 3/11/2017 0:48

Every counter-argument seems to come down to "but hold on, us too - what about us". As if it happening to both sexes somehow makes it even steven or some shit.

If that's what you are getting from this, you are misunderstanding me. What I'm trying to point out is that if you think a man putting a hand on a woman's knee without permission is a problem, then by your own standards, you should have a problem with women too. Because they can be just as touchy feely as men, and make the same uninvited advances that men so often do. I say that based on my own experiences and other peoples that I know.

Zersch, let's say a woman made an uninvited advance on you, you told her to stop, and she did. Would you consider it sexual harassment?

I personally don't think there is a widespread cultural problem with men or women. I think we are conflating flirting and normal sexual interactions with genuine harassment. And tbh, it has echoes of puritanism to it.

Nofo @ 3/11/2017 0:50

My point is that everyone makes their own decisions about public trials all the time. Why is rape treated differently in the court of public opinion than murder? Both accusations ruin lives.

Having an opinion on a public trial is one thing. A witch hunt is another.

I've heard stories from my sister about her own experiences with harassment over the years. And yeah, it often pisses me off to hear about guys hitting on her in bars and refusing to take no for an answer. Or random strangers in the street making inappropriate comments to her. But douchebags exist. And they always will.

Going back to the 'cultural change' thing. What changes do people want to see? What change could we ever make that would completely eliminate the possibility of men slipping roofies into women's drinks at bars? How would you propose to stop men from ever making an unwanted advance against a women ever again? I'd really like to know.

Most of the harassment talked about in this thread can only ever be prevented by social pressure imo. And culturally I think we already frown upon sexual harassment and rape. Actual harassment is no longer socially acceptable. And sure, maybe we aren't all the way there yet, but I can't subscribe to this idea that men have some entrenched backwards attitudes towards women.

I know it's popular to claim we live in a rape culture in the West, but all the evidence suggests otherwise.

The whole Weinstein thing is not about some great cultural problem with how men treat women. It is about powerful men abusing their power. It is pretty absurd that this thread descended into a discussion about how men treat women when the source of the thread is a man accusing another man of sexual abuse/pedophilia.

I also don't like how this discussion seems to be framed in a way that all women would naturally agree with the opposing position to me on this. Plenty of women I know, many who have no doubt experienced some of the things talked about in this thread first hand, don't subscribe to a lot of the stuff you guys are saying.

Oh, Vlady responded whilst I was posting. Whoops!

I'm gonna have to read it later tho, gotta go out now.

Okay, I had a bit of time left, I read Vlady's post.

I will read the Atlantic article.

But something tells me none of us are going change our minds on this subject. Which is fine. This is a touchy subject for a lot of people (no pun intended). And we have strong opinions on this either side of the issue.

Tbf, it does seem that we are all misunderstanding each others position a fair bit.