Part of me is glad this is a continued discussion but the other part of me is pissed that there was such an outcry to exile it into it's own thread, which reeks more of "take it away from the place that I usually post so I don't have to see it" rather than "I'm genuinely interested in this topic and would like for it not to be cast into a general discussion thread where it won't get the attention it deserves"

Mercator @ 1/1/2015 3:59

I once joked while drunk to a trans girl/guy. It didn't like my joke. Stop trans hate guys!

It? Really Merc?

The Anti-Kiwifruit @ 1/1/2015 3:59

Nofo ☭ @ 1/1/2015 19:48 The Anti-Kiwifruit @ 1/1/2015 2:23 I am glad FE is fighting the real issues of the world. But it is a very real issue. Trans people are killed every day because they had the audacity to express who they were when who they were isn't considered "normal." It is a real fucking issue. Not only that, but 50% of transgender individuals in a survey said they were sexually assaulted. 67% of trans women in that survey said they were sexually assaulted. My problem isn't the issue itself but the dramatisation of the issue and the sometimes attention-seeking behaviour of those involved. For example, the reality shows (or similar) based on transgender individuals showing them acting in a pretty.... pathetic (for want of a better word) way - rather than highlighting the issues you cite - in my opinion, belittles the entire group and trivialises the issue. The funny thing is these shows are probably created to "give attention to the issues transgender people face" but very rarely is it actually shown and is just turned into something "entertaining". Also you can say that pretty much every group of people - gay, straight, trans, black, white, asian etc - are killed on a daily basis for simply being who they are. Is there a reason transgender individuals would be specifically targeted for sexual assault?

This is pretty silly. Every reality show makes the people involved usually look pretty pathetic. It's not actual occurrences it's just silly made up scenarios that the people on the show play out. You're better off looking to documentaries if you want to see the real issues. Reality shows are meant to entertain more than inform. Basing any opinion on the people as a whole would be silly for anyone.

The issue with saying "well XYZ all have the same problem" is that you are diluting the issue and more or less just changing the topic. Black people have been targeted a lot lately by police but that is it's own issue. It's not just that trans people are treated violently it's that they are treated with contempt or in a manner to imply that what they are experiencing isn't real. They are often denied the identity that identify with and are even led to believe that what they think and do is not only wrong but even sinful or harmful.

I will admit that trans issues are not something that the average person is familiar with. I myself once thought it had more to do with forced gender roles and people feeling put off by them but I think now that some people genuinely feel as if they are stuck in the wrong bodies and I feel like they should have every right to correct that as it is their own bodies and minds. I feel like things would be easier if people didn't have such a rigid pink and blue outlook on gender but that is besides the point.

Natalie @ 1/1/2015 16:02

I don't think it was an awful idea to move it here, I was trying to follow it in the other thread but actually felt there was enough that it did deserve it's own thread. Guess it's a case of how you choose to see it. Feels more respected to me here than there, but ymmv. Read an article of an interview with the mom. They didn't allow surgeries to begin at age 16 which apparently triggered some of the feelings of rejection. That made me curious what you all think about that? Should they have allowed and paid for this at 16?

It was a combination of people asking to move it without actually being participants in the conversation and furthermore liking a comment calling the current discussion "fucking stupid" that pissed me off for the most part.

I don't think the family was ever going to allow this to happen. They felt it wasn't keeping with their image and even in death refused to acknowledge it even was a suicide or that anything was actually wrong. She had to wait til she was 18 to have the operation for herself but was fed misinformation that transitioning is harder the older you are. So she felt like she was against the clock to get it done. They took her out of school and took away all of her access to social media so she felt even more alone for the longest time. I can only imagine how hard that must be. Your only contact with people who don't see or tolerate you for the way you feel you are. I wish she hadn't killed herself, she probably felt at that point it was the only control she had. It's a shame that she was denied control even of her own death, what with the lie of what happened and them not honouring her wishes or referring to her in the way she chose to be. It's all just so... fucking sad.

Natalie @ 1/1/2015 16:15

And in the interest of trying not to offend, can someone explain how you know if the person would prefer to be addressed as a he or she? I don't want to hurt people and honestly don't know so I'm asking. What if you don't know the person well, or know their wishes?

Well generally the best way to go is to ask what their preferred pronouns are.

I didn't think of it as preaching to the choir and Chris' opinions weren't entirely uncommon. I realise he has been trolly before but he has also likewise been... not? (then again he might have been trolling then too but just didn't seem like it because I was agreeing with him???)

I like to think the best of people and there is always the echo of "they can't possibly be that big of an asshole can they?" in the back of my head. But then *bam* schlong right to the face

Pardon my hyperbole. I don't think any suggestions to remove the discussion were a "joke" though.

Under the precieved circumstances it made sense at the time.

Lol if you think you had the unpopular opinion in the Ferguson thread you are deluding yourself.

Chris25 @ 1/1/2015 21:08

You know what I didn't do? FUCKING KILL MYSELF

the thing here is they could have done more than just the surgery to support their daughter. They could have shown acceptance or willingness to accept. But from what it seems they were more interested in how they would be perceived and only saw Leelah's trans status as a burden and embarrassment. Something to hide and sweep under the rug. It just doesn't strike me as being a loving parent. More like someone who values religious social status over their child.

Now I will admit we don't know the whole story... a major point of which is that Leelah was under the impression that transitioning would be harder the older she got and that 18 might be too late or later than ideal. This point is probably the main contributing factor in her depression and ultimate suicide but she never says where she got this info, whether from some shady website or if her christian therapist was feeding her lies... the latter is possible but equally the former... it would have been helpful for Leelah to have more contact with other trans persons during this time but it's really splitting hairs to place blame because she might have spoken to someone who could have helped maybe if they hadn't been controlling assholes.

What is important is that this issue is out in the open and that people are actually discussing trans issues which are usually ignored. People are given this cautionary tale that suicide isn't the answer... that killing yourself will not give you the control that you desire when you didn't have control in life... that even if you die you might still not get what you want. Leelah didn't get the treatment she desired in death... her parents didn't acknowledge her suicide or their involvement in it or that Leelah was even trans at all... and all of her wishes for her items to be sold and the money donated to trans groups ignored...

It's fucked up and I think anyone will realise that. And there are really no easy answers. Letting people do what they want is generally ideal but as people have said and I agree Trans culture is something that the general public really isn't all that familiar with. Like we have come a long way with homosexuals (still a long way to go but it's taken a hella long time to get where we are). Maybe some day soon with the help of discussing and recognizing issues like this was can become familiar and the answers will be easier?

Boc @ 2/1/2015 2:03

Buffy @ 1/1/2015 19:22 I don't see how passing judgment on someone because of their race, sexual preference, gender, etc is any different than passing judgment because of someone's religion. No matter what you think about Christianity, lumping everybody who has a certain faith together as all being close-minded bigots isn't fair or correct. eh, I'd argue it's different because race/sex/gender are all things that you're born into, whereas religion is something you choose. It's always more 'fair' to criticize someone over something they can control/choose than something they can't (I do agree with your general point though. I still find it weird that a large portion of this nation can be so sensitive to the separation between muslims/jihadists yet act like all Christians are basically the WBC.)

I think it's easier to generalize people who are the majority and have a lot more power. People are sensitive to people lumping all muslims in with legitimate terrorists because it happens... a LOT. And it's way more fucked up than saying a christian is a bigot to be completely fair. Also more of us have more experience with christianity and have probably all had it shoved down our throats at one point or another whereas muslim and islamic faiths have more of an underdog outlook from our perspective. Obviously I can't speak for everyone but as someone who grew up in a church environment I know that not all christians are gay bashing bigots... but I think a lot of the figures that are idolized and looked up to and emulated are so it's a pretty easy misjudgement to make.

Dylan @ 2/1/2015 14:51

I feel like that post was more or less what Chris said about the opposite side. Edit: in the sense that you are justifying something that makes it sound like a cop out. Sure I doubt any Christian has killed themselves because of the prejudice against them. But I know a few kids who have been isolated or kicked out of their families because they became Christians. Not so much because their parents thought they were bigots but because they didn't agree with what they were doing with their life.

I wasn't comparing christianity to trans or homosexual issues though. I was comparing the religions. What you said about some christian kids who were isolated would probably be ten times worse if they weren't following a religion that 90% of the country also follows. I'm sure they would get plenty of local support if that were the case. I know where I live there are probably 5 churches just within walking distance and it's fairly common to just assume that the average person is of some variant of the Christian belief. Now if they were to say hey mom I'm a muslim now... then there would be problems for sure. Kicked out, compared to al queda, and would likely get very little sympathy from the surrounding community. Unless it was a muslim community but that seems more of an exception to the rule than the rule.

I don't think anyone should be discriminated against if it is something they can't control but really it just seems like people of christian faith just feel left out and want to trivialize real systemic persecution in order to make it seem like the persecution itself doesn't matter because everyone is dealing with it... even if it's more like they are squashing ants and are crying because one of the ants bit them.

Chris25 @ 2/1/2015 20:30

Moose @ 2/1/2015 19:02 Glad to see this important topic has been reduced to gifs and pictures. Meh, its not that important.

Curtis @ 2/1/2015 22:02

I'm not great at tackling serious topics like this so I've avoided commenting so far, but I've got a lot of thoughts on this particular subject Spoiler tagging for length etc Spoiler + Thanks for taking the time to read

surprised it took this long

so you're mad that someone else isn't as open about being mad? Not everyone is balls to the walls or wants to start shit. Did you comment directly to this person or did you just nod and then come here to complain about it in private?