The Anti-Kiwifruit @ 1/1/2015 20:31

Moose @ 2/1/2015 14:29 The Anti-Kiwifruit @ 1/1/2015 20:25 Based on that letter, that didn't seem to be an issue at all, she found out what they were at 14. But once again, the internet is not a basic human right. Her right to be the person she wanted to be was the right I was referring to. How expensive is it to transition out of curiosity?

Yeah, no shit. Despite what nofo says, i don't hate trannies. I think they should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want to do.

HOWEVER, if i had a kid that was 16 and wanted me to pay for them to go see a "gender therapist" and wanted me to pay for fucking estrogen pills or whatever, I'd tell that kid to fuck off and get a fucking job.

Moose @ 1/1/2015 20:29

The Anti-Kiwifruit @ 1/1/2015 20:25 Based on that letter, that didn't seem to be an issue at all, she found out what they were at 14. But once again, the internet is not a basic human right. Her right to be the person she wanted to be was the right I was referring to.

And what about the 16 year old kids who want to be all fucking tatted up and pierced and shit but their parents won't let them?

I HAVE A RIGHT TO BE THE PERSON I WANT TO BE MOM AND DAD, FUCK YOU I HATE YOU

The Anti-Kiwifruit @ 1/1/2015 20:31

Moose @ 2/1/2015 14:29 The Anti-Kiwifruit @ 1/1/2015 20:25 Based on that letter, that didn't seem to be an issue at all, she found out what they were at 14. But once again, the internet is not a basic human right. Her right to be the person she wanted to be was the right I was referring to. How expensive is it to transition out of curiosity?

I'm not entirely sure, since i don't think it's covered by health insurance, but i could be wrong. It's probably pretty pricey when it comes to hormones and the surgery that's involved.

Chris25 @ 1/1/2015 21:08

You know what I didn't do? FUCKING KILL MYSELF

Chris you are kind of missing the point. It wasn't simply they refused to pay for her to transition, they refused to accept her identity. Even after her death, they are calling her their beloved son Joshua.

Just want to add a few comments from a different perspective. As a mom I have agonized over many decisions I have made in the years I've been raising these two people. I've taken roads less traveled and have questioned it the whole time. I have cried myself to sleep with worry and concern, hoping that the judgement some have passed would in the end be wrong. As it turns out, homeschooling my people was a perfect fit and they have thrived. They are not locked in a dungeon but well adjusted awesome people with friends and a social life.

I love my children with every ounce of my being and until you have a kid, you can't really understand what that means. I have had to tell them no to things. My rule has always been nothing permanent. No tattoos, piercings,or whatever until they are 18. That's not me just being mean, it's me understanding I'd have likely made some stupid decisions at 16 that could have effected me for the rest of my life and my chosen career. Above all things I have always tried to maintain a good relationship and separate connection with each of my kids. The reality is they may hate me or hate some of the decisions I have made but at the end of the day, I can honestly say I have done my absolute best, with Gods help, to raise two really awesome people.

Natalie @ 1/1/2015 21:44

Just want to add a few comments from a different perspective. As a mom I have agonized over many decisions I have made in the years I've been raising these two people. I've taken roads less traveled and have questioned it the whole time. I have cried myself to sleep with worry and concern, hoping that the judgement some have passed would in the end be wrong. As it turns out, homeschooling my people was a perfect fit and they have thrived. They are not locked in a dungeon but well adjusted awesome people with friends and a social life. I love my children with every ounce of my being and until you have a kid, you can't really understand what that means. I have had to tell them no to things. My rule has always been nothing permanent. No tattoos, piercings,or whatever until they are 18. That's not me just being mean, it's me understanding I'd have likely made some stupid decisions at 16 that could have effected me for the rest of my life and my chosen career. Above all things I have always tried to maintain a good relationship and separate connection with each of my kids. The reality is they may hate me or hate some of the decisions I have made but at the end of the day, I can honestly say I have done my absolute best, with Gods help, to raise two really awesome people.

Stop Natalie, you sound reasonable. Thats completely unacceptable.

Chris25 @ 1/1/2015 23:07

Natalie @ 1/1/2015 21:44 Just want to add a few comments from a different perspective. As a mom I have agonized over many decisions I have made in the years I've been raising these two people. I've taken roads less traveled and have questioned it the whole time. I have cried myself to sleep with worry and concern, hoping that the judgement some have passed would in the end be wrong. As it turns out, homeschooling my people was a perfect fit and they have thrived. They are not locked in a dungeon but well adjusted awesome people with friends and a social life. I love my children with every ounce of my being and until you have a kid, you can't really understand what that means. I have had to tell them no to things. My rule has always been nothing permanent. No tattoos, piercings,or whatever until they are 18. That's not me just being mean, it's me understanding I'd have likely made some stupid decisions at 16 that could have effected me for the rest of my life and my chosen career. Above all things I have always tried to maintain a good relationship and separate connection with each of my kids. The reality is they may hate me or hate some of the decisions I have made but at the end of the day, I can honestly say I have done my absolute best, with Gods help, to raise two really awesome people. Stop Natalie, you sound reasonable. Thats completely unacceptable.

You lose all right to argue when you completely ignore shikis points.

papershiki @ 1/1/2015 21:06

Chris you are kind of missing the point. It wasn't simply they refused to pay for her to transition, they refused to accept her identity. Even after her death, they are calling her their beloved son Joshua.

I guess i don't really see whats wrong with that. When they think back upon their dead child's life they're going to remember Joshua's first Christmas and Joshua's first day of school and the first time Joshua got first place in a spelling bee or whatever the fuck.

Just because the kid decided later in life that he wanted to to be a girl, that doesnt erase 16 years of memories of their son.

Nofo ☭ @ 1/1/2015 22:10

Chris25 @ 1/1/2015 23:07 Natalie @ 1/1/2015 21:44 Just want to add a few comments from a different perspective. As a mom I have agonized over many decisions I have made in the years I've been raising these two people. I've taken roads less traveled and have questioned it the whole time. I have cried myself to sleep with worry and concern, hoping that the judgement some have passed would in the end be wrong. As it turns out, homeschooling my people was a perfect fit and they have thrived. They are not locked in a dungeon but well adjusted awesome people with friends and a social life. I love my children with every ounce of my being and until you have a kid, you can't really understand what that means. I have had to tell them no to things. My rule has always been nothing permanent. No tattoos, piercings,or whatever until they are 18. That's not me just being mean, it's me understanding I'd have likely made some stupid decisions at 16 that could have effected me for the rest of my life and my chosen career. Above all things I have always tried to maintain a good relationship and separate connection with each of my kids. The reality is they may hate me or hate some of the decisions I have made but at the end of the day, I can honestly say I have done my absolute best, with Gods help, to raise two really awesome people. Stop Natalie, you sound reasonable. Thats completely unacceptable. You lose all right to argue when you completely ignore shikis points.

Addressed yw.

the thing here is they could have done more than just the surgery to support their daughter. They could have shown acceptance or willingness to accept. But from what it seems they were more interested in how they would be perceived and only saw Leelah's trans status as a burden and embarrassment. Something to hide and sweep under the rug. It just doesn't strike me as being a loving parent. More like someone who values religious social status over their child.

Now I will admit we don't know the whole story... a major point of which is that Leelah was under the impression that transitioning would be harder the older she got and that 18 might be too late or later than ideal. This point is probably the main contributing factor in her depression and ultimate suicide but she never says where she got this info, whether from some shady website or if her christian therapist was feeding her lies... the latter is possible but equally the former... it would have been helpful for Leelah to have more contact with other trans persons during this time but it's really splitting hairs to place blame because she might have spoken to someone who could have helped maybe if they hadn't been controlling assholes.

What is important is that this issue is out in the open and that people are actually discussing trans issues which are usually ignored. People are given this cautionary tale that suicide isn't the answer... that killing yourself will not give you the control that you desire when you didn't have control in life... that even if you die you might still not get what you want. Leelah didn't get the treatment she desired in death... her parents didn't acknowledge her suicide or their involvement in it or that Leelah was even trans at all... and all of her wishes for her items to be sold and the money donated to trans groups ignored...

It's fucked up and I think anyone will realise that. And there are really no easy answers. Letting people do what they want is generally ideal but as people have said and I agree Trans culture is something that the general public really isn't all that familiar with. Like we have come a long way with homosexuals (still a long way to go but it's taken a hella long time to get where we are). Maybe some day soon with the help of discussing and recognizing issues like this was can become familiar and the answers will be easier?

Buffy @ 1/1/2015 19:22

I don't see how passing judgment on someone because of their race, sexual preference, gender, etc is any different than passing judgment because of someone's religion. No matter what you think about Christianity, lumping everybody who has a certain faith together as all being close-minded bigots isn't fair or correct.

eh, I'd argue it's different because race/sex/gender are all things that you're born into, whereas religion is something you choose. It's always more 'fair' to criticize someone over something they can control/choose than something they can't

(I do agree with your general point though. I still find it weird that a large portion of this nation can be so sensitive to the separation between muslims/jihadists yet act like all Christians are basically the WBC.)

My perspective, from a 16 year old semi-closeted gay Christian.

I have struggled with my identity for a while; I know that my religion is a choice but my sexuality is not and there have been frequent times where I've debated giving up my religion because I felt like there was no way both could work together. However, I do continue to choose to follow Christ because above all I believe in the underlying theme of all He has done; love. However, there are an overwhelming majority of Christians that judge and spread messages of hate that it's hard for people (especially not in the religion) to lump them all together as bigoted and ignorant.

I'm lucky enough to never relate to what Leelah went through, but I sympathize with being unaccepted in a community due to things that cannot be changed. She never asked to be a girl, she just WAS, and her parents were too clouded in their delusions to love her unconditionally. I don't believe they're terrible parents for denying her the transition, nor do I doubt that they loved their son. But their son, wasn't their son. No matter how badly they wanted her to be, no matter the memories of their baby boy, Leelah was always a girl. And nothing they did gave Leelah the impression that they loved her. When you are convinced, and you feel like you KNOW your parents don't love you, and you're isolated from your friends for so long, and when you return they don't seem like they care; I can't imagine anything worse.

I don't think the parents should be charged with child abuse. I don't think they deserve the public backlash for what they did. It may take some time, but they have to learn from this. I think everyone needs to learn from this. Nobody should ever feel scared to be who they are, and the sooner people can start to love again, the sooner LGBTQ+ youth stop killing themselves.

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(I do agree with your general point though. I still find it weird that a large portion of this nation can be so sensitive to the separation between muslims/jihadists yet act like all Christians are basically the WBC.)

It's basically the same here, we take christianity as a big joke but the islam religion is taboo for some reason. Now that's a completely different issue.

So this thread certainly got heated.

I don't know much about transmisogyny or parenting, but I guess it's best to at least try to talk to your kid and figure out why they feel what they feel. I think the parents could've done differently, not sure how isolating and not allowing the kid to have a social life would help in any way.

Anyway, I keep losing track of my thoughts but I always fail to understand why everyone gets so passionate about things all the time. I guess it might be because I can't relate.

Boc @ 2/1/2015 2:03

Buffy @ 1/1/2015 19:22 I don't see how passing judgment on someone because of their race, sexual preference, gender, etc is any different than passing judgment because of someone's religion. No matter what you think about Christianity, lumping everybody who has a certain faith together as all being close-minded bigots isn't fair or correct. eh, I'd argue it's different because race/sex/gender are all things that you're born into, whereas religion is something you choose. It's always more 'fair' to criticize someone over something they can control/choose than something they can't (I do agree with your general point though. I still find it weird that a large portion of this nation can be so sensitive to the separation between muslims/jihadists yet act like all Christians are basically the WBC.)

I think it's easier to generalize people who are the majority and have a lot more power. People are sensitive to people lumping all muslims in with legitimate terrorists because it happens... a LOT. And it's way more fucked up than saying a christian is a bigot to be completely fair. Also more of us have more experience with christianity and have probably all had it shoved down our throats at one point or another whereas muslim and islamic faiths have more of an underdog outlook from our perspective. Obviously I can't speak for everyone but as someone who grew up in a church environment I know that not all christians are gay bashing bigots... but I think a lot of the figures that are idolized and looked up to and emulated are so it's a pretty easy misjudgement to make.