DR @ 23/12/2017 9:34

Exodus is the underrated fave

wtf again

To move away from the tired Dawkins' cliches, I actually have a solid counter-argument to this debate.

I don't believe in God or any religion. I come from a fairly religious background but reached a point in my life where I started to stray away from it all because I found it didn't resonate with me and I found various issues with Biblical teachings etc.

I migrated towards learning more about the scientific origins of the universe and adopting the scientific method to my learning, choosing to base my knowledge on facts instead of belief because that works for me, because I can accept unknowns and knowledge gaps.

I feel like a large swathe of the population can't. And it's not down to intellect like some of the smug-ass Dawkins' fanboys would suggest, rather I think the natural human predisposition is to be spooked by the unknown and to require routine, explanation and order. I feel like evolutionarily speaking, this is why religion even came about.

I don't think it's all been about some power grab although certain factions have used it to that end after the fact, I feel like primordial man legit wanted to know what the flaming ball in the sky was and were scared of it going away without ritual. Because it's in built to the human condition to require knowledge and certainty.

To adopt a scientific approach to understanding, you have to accept science has limitations where our knowledge ends. Facts will take you so far, but there's plenty of hard-hitting and deeply philosophical issues they can't explain away. And I don't think it's always necessarily a case either of us just not knowing, I think in a lot of cases it requires accepting certain truths that are beyond our rational thinking and common sense. See quantum mechanics for an example of a scientific fact that defies common sense and challenges us to think in a way that we have not evolved to. It's a pretty big leap to make.

It feels like humanity is not ready to move beyond religion yet because we don't have the base programming to do so. And it feels like any attempt to do so will actually cause more harm than good, because having a little hope that there's something more to everything can drive away nihilism. If my life circumstances were shittier and I didn't have that hope, I'd probably find existence pretty pointless. I genuinely believe that leads to a higher incidence of crime and suffering which brings society crashing down eventually.

That's not to say certain religious excesses shouldn't be curtailed. If it impacts upon freedom, progress and endangers lives I draw the line. Plenty of fighting has been caused by it and to that extent it should be toned down. I just don't think abolishing it altogether will lead to a greater society.

It will lead to a lot of smug-ness and a hell of a lot of bleakness. I feel like too many people aren't hard-wired enough to care about society if they don't feel like their life has a greater meaning sadly. But again I don't think that's down to anything other than the way our evolution has programmed us to be.

Too long, didn't read. Ha!

Darkus Black @ 24/12/2017 0:37

Too long, didn't read. Ha!

i did.

and i was reminded of gould's notion of non-overlapping magisteria

God ain't real

Also I'm agnostic. I don't feel like you can decisively say there's not a God. You can disprove certain things (I think some parts of the Catholic church have accepted parts of the old testament as metaphorical rather than literal, for instance) but you can't really disprove the concept of a creator.

I appreciate that's not how science works, and the burden of proof is upon the person with the theory, I just also appreciate that you can't turn around and say "this doesn't exist" because we have no idea.

There's about 97% of the universe we don't understand mostly wrapped around the concepts of dark matter/energy. Dark matter isn't actually matter, it's a poorly named term because we literally don't know what it is. It's something that's causing stuff in the universe to exhibit gravitational patterns that we otherwise can't explain, but science hasn't taken us there yet.

So again it's a knowledge gap. We undertand very very little. There may be higher dimensions, other universes, all kinds of stuff that goes beyond our base perceptions. We really are quite limited beings. I feel like definitively saying something as big as God, which even most religion is fairly sketchy on the concept of, is a bit too much.

Incidentally, Isaac Newton is widely regarded as the smartest man to have ever lived and he believed in God. I really don't feel comfortable calling the smartest person in known history "delusional".

Cactus @ 23/12/2017 20:40

Darkus Black @ 24/12/2017 0:37 Too long, didn't read. Ha! i did. and i was reminded of gould's notion of non-overlapping magisteria

That's a legit interesting read. Thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism#Apathetic_agnosticism

Me

Mercator @ 23/12/2017 20:48

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism#Apathetic_agnosticism Me

Me too generally.

I'm not overly interested in the debate one way or the other usually.

It seems everybody has the concept of God confused with that of religion.

Get Curtis to change the title to "Christian bashing" or "thread for people who feel the need to evangelize while denying religious affiliation "

Now to address the important part of the thread.

Cats are evil and generally suck ass. Dogs, otoh, are the noblest of creatures..

Primate @ 24/12/2017 0:56

It seems everybody has the concept of God confused with that of religion. Get Curtis to change the title to "Christian bashing" or "thread for people who feel the need to evangelize while denying religious affiliation "

Why are you mad?

Darkus Black @ 23/12/2017 19:00

Primate @ 24/12/2017 0:56 It seems everybody has the concept of God confused with that of religion. Get Curtis to change the title to "Christian bashing" or "thread for people who feel the need to evangelize while denying religious affiliation " Why are you mad?

I'm not mad. I think organized religion has always started with positive goals in mind, but inevitably leads to an abuse of power, and have no use for it.

Unless you meant the dogs vs cats thing, then yes I'm a little mad that cats even exist.

Primate @ 24/12/2017 1:06

Unless you meant the dogs vs cats thing, then yes I'm a little mad that cats even exist.

Cats exist so the weaker members of society have something to focus on when they move away from organised religion