We all know Lyanna Mormont is the true Queen of Everything <3

I rly love the shot of Jon's last stand in the field as the entire army is charging at him. Also loved the chaos during the long take while Jon was fighting everyone. Those and the Rickon scene were probably my favorite moments

That scene would be BRUTAL if Jon and Sansa hadn't just reunited. If that was about to be the first Stark reunion and they were seconds from each other and then Rickon dies it would've been so rough

Also I wish they found a way to keep Theon there to watch Ramsay's demise

And I hated the shot of Daario beheading the sons of the harpy member, looked like some shit outta 300

I really wanted to like it :(

It was shot very well, Ramsay getting his comeuppance was satisfying, as was the dragons burning the fleet attacking Meereen, and the Stark Banner been thrown over Winterfell again.

But the actual Battle Of Winterfell was very (: and predictable. It started well with Ramsay trying to lure Jon by killing Rickon, I thought that was great...it was tense and I actually cared.

But they ruined it all with everything that followed imo. Jon charging at the enemy alone was moronic. Him getting saved from the Ramsay cavalry at the last minute from impending death was silly and cliché, the body pile was the dumbest thing I've ever seen, Ramsay firing arrows at his own men...Ramsay been portrayed as a tactical genius.

Oh and Littlefinger showed up just in the nick of time, who saw that coming?! Everything went as expected in the end, which is not a good sign for a show that prides itself on been unpredictable.

I agree with Dylan that the show has become too black and white.

Yall can tell me to stop ranting about the show if it's annoying anyone, by the way.

I don't disagree that there were some logical leaps, but I don't think anything was that bad

- Jon didn't purposefully charge at Ramsay's army alone. He had a choice between forging forward or trying to retreat. If he did the latter he would've been shredded by the Bolton archers just like Rickon, so he made the only play he could. It was the whole point of Ramsay's Rickon ploy, to lure him out into that impossible situation and in turn throw his whole army off

- Ramsay firing arrows at his own men shouldn't be surprising at all considering he's probably the most ruthless/sociopathic person in all of Westeros

- The Littlefinger "rescue" is no different from how Blackwater ended, or how the battle at the Wall ultimately ended, or how most of the battles in LOTR ended. True, they could've subverted the trope this time, but I think the fact that Sansa hid it from everyone at least adds some intrigue to it going forward. Even though it was super predictable, I think the execution of the battle more than made up for it. Predictability doesn't automatically equate to being bad

y didn't Rickon run to the side and hide behind the burning X???

Curtis @ 20/6/2016 21:47

y didn't Rickon run to the side and hide behind the burning X???

Why did the Hurley Bird say Hurley?

Curtis @ 20/6/2016 22:47

y didn't Rickon run to the side and hide behind the burning X???

Did you not hear the rules? It was run, and run only. They probably edited out the clarification that he couldn't hide nor serpentine.

Boc @ 20/6/2016 18:16

- Jon didn't purposefully charge at Ramsay's army alone. He had a choice between forging forward or trying to retreat. If he did the latter he would've been shredded by the Bolton archers just like Rickon, so he made the only play he could. It was the whole point of Ramsay's Rickon ploy, to lure him out into that impossible situation and in turn throw his whole army off

I disagree, it would have been the far saner option to run back to his army. Weighing up the odds of charging at a bunch of cavalry alone, or running back to my own army and getting shot at by a few arrows, I know what I'd pick. Whilst running back, I'd be getting ever further out of range. Anyway, Jon still got shot at by Bolton arrows when he got up and started fighting, so he only doubled his chances of getting killed by charging towards them.

That wasn't the idea they were going for anyway. Basically, Jon got so angry that he lost his cool completely and charged at the enemy in a blind rage. I see no indication that they were aiming for anything else with that scene. And it's a disservice to the character they have built up for the last 6 seasons. Is this the same Jon who was persuaded to return to the Night's Watch after his father got beheaded? Is it the same Jon who mourned his brother getting killed at the Red Wedding but refused to go out and seek revenge? I get that he has left the Night's Watch now, but the point is that this is someone who has learned to control his emotions in difficult situations. Now, after 6 seasons of that, they throw it all away and have him lose his cool after a really obvious ploy by Ramsay, which gets him worked up and leaves him running towards what would have been certain death, were it not for his plot armor.

It was this point that the episode started sucking imo. It would have been far more powerful and rewarding and consistent with the character if Jon, after seeing his brother killed before his eyes, had controlled his emotions and gone back to his men, knowing that he had to keep a clear head and use superior tactics if he was to beat Ramsay and ultimately avenge Rickon. Ramsay's ploy failing would also have added some push and pull to the battle, something the whole sequence sorely lacked which previous 'battle episodes' had aplenty.

Boc @ 20/6/2016 18:16

- Ramsay firing arrows at his own men shouldn't be surprising at all considering he's probably the most ruthless/sociopathic person in all of Westeros

But he expects these men to fight for him, so he has to inspire at least some loyalty. Ramsay primarily does that by fear, but I don't think many men would serve too long under a commander who willingly orders arrows to be fired at them whilst they are in the field. Wouldn't be long til they got tired of that shit, no matter how ruthless/sociopathic you are. But then again, I don't think this is something that consciously occurred to whoever wrote this episode. I think it's simply a plot hole.

Boc @ 20/6/2016 18:16

- The Littlefinger "rescue" is no different from how Blackwater ended, or how the battle at the Wall ultimately ended, or how most of the battles in LOTR ended. True, they could've subverted the trope this time, but I think the fact that Sansa hid it from everyone at least adds some intrigue to it going forward. Even though it was super predictable, I think the execution of the battle more than made up for it. Predictability doesn't automatically equate to being bad

Except the Blackwater and Wall rescue's worked and genuinely were surprising, despite the clues leading up to them. This was just plain obvious from the beginning. Predictability doesn't automatically equate to being bad, I completely agree, but here's the thing...they portrayed it like it was a surprising moment. And the battle execution was terrible imo.

The entire episode was set up around Littlefinger's rescue. Characters were made to do completely stupid things in order to set it up too.

I agree that Sansa hiding the plan from everyone adds a layer of intrigue, but that's another thing...why didn't Sansa tell anybody?

Okay, I get maybe at first why she didn't say anything (maybe...) but to not say anything on the eve of battle when she knows they are about to face a far greater force? What did anyone, including her, benefit from not telling Jon that she had a bunch of Knights of the Vale on the way? There is no discernible advantage. Her silence almost got everyone, including Jon, killed! She is either really dumb, or really paranoid. But even if it's the latter, it still makes no sense. If Littlefinger is coming, she will have to explain it to Jon at some point. Why not tell him before the battle so he can change his plans accordingly?

The answer, I believe, is that D&D wanted to portray the battle in a way that made it look like Ramsay would win, right up until the last minute. But to do that Sansa had to not tell anyone that she had requested reinforcements from Littlefinger, which would be a game changer and might make Jon hold back before attacking, and also Jon had to lose his cool despite that going against his character, and charge along with his men to certain death, so that Ramsay would have the upper hand and look like he was going to slaughter them all.

So basically, we have characters making illogical decisions for the sake of the plot. It's lazy writing.

This isn't the show it used to be. It's like Lost S6, I'm too invested to stop watching, but this show definitely peaked at Season 4, and has been on a downward spiral ever since.

In my opinion anyway!

Curtis @ 20/6/2016 23:47

y didn't Rickon run to the side and hide behind the burning X???

Why didn't he zig zag? Clearly he didn't play enough Call of Duty as a kid.

Simplton @ 21/6/2016 1:37

Curtis @ 20/6/2016 21:47 y didn't Rickon run to the side and hide behind the burning X??? Why did the Hurley Bird say Hurley?

Why was Candice a Hero?

Curtis @ 20/6/2016 22:47

y didn't Rickon run to the side and hide behind the burning X???

A rain of arrows would have met him had he done that

lol it's funny you mention Lost S6 Wikey, because sometimes I feel like I'm the Curtis of this show now, defending it while most have started to hate it

As to your points:

- Yeah I think you're right that it was meant to be more of an emotional decision than a rational one. Only thing I'd say to that is I think this IS a different Jon than we've seen before, after coming back from the dead. He's more reckless now, even basically telling Mel that he has a death wish. It IS kinda weak though (but again, I can look past it just for the execution. That shot of the cavalry stampeding towards him while he throws his belt/sheath aside was incredible)

- This is also true, but I think this extends FAR beyond the arrows thing. Ramsay has transparently been a piece of shit, and yet has been met with almost unwavering support from the North this whole time. There was virtually no "North Remembers" plot outside of the Mormonts and some old lady in Winterfell. So basically I think this extends far beyond this episode itself. They even had Roose point out to Ramsay how stupid he was being and how he can't instill loyalty if he keeps acting like a mad dog, but in the end it looked like it didn't even matter. But as for the arrows thing itself...to be fair, we never really got to see the result if the Boltons had won the battle (not that it's likely the writers would've had them desert him, but still)

- I absolutely don't think it was meant to be a surprise. Why would they have all that set-up with Littlefinger at the Wall, Sansa's letter, etc? They could've explained it away afterwards if they REALLY wanted to keep it a surprise. There was far more set-up for this than there was for the Tywin rescue/Stannis rescue. When the horns started to blow I didn't see it meant as a "WAIT WHAT WHO COULD THAT BE" moment so much as a "FINALLY" moment

I dunno, like I said before there were definitely some logical leaps, but the show's had more and more of those in general ever since they ran out of book material. As long as they're not glaring (like the recent Arya shit) I can look past them and still enjoy the show when it's as amazingly executed as this episode was

This show is GOD AWFUL Boc just give up



ps do u all like my new tattoo

also TBH I didn't really defend the final season, I thought most of it was disappointing and it's easily my least favorite. It was the finale that I mostly defended. I LIKED IT! Except for Kate saving her bullet