Mercator @ 12/5/2017 20:08

Just a little amazed that the second longest surviving mafia player who got lynched for arguably a mod mistake made HOL. You forgot Vlady claiming 3rd party to get himself lynched (:

IMO this isn't really a mod mistake. It's very standard for mods to hidden reveal text upon role flips, so I don't think you should be arguing against it. Especially since cop is a really good town claim that you kinda had in your back pocket. Modding is a hard job and I think Maddie did a good job on balance of this game, especially considering scum almost won with such a town dominant early game.

But that does bring up an interesting question. I think as mods in general we should be willing to differentiate between hidden text that reveals itself upon flip, and hidden text that reveals itself upon game ending. Scum already has the odds stacked against them in general IMO with this claim heavy meta that we've established, and hidden text usually works against them.

If it's hidden text that defines the entire role, then I agree it should be revealed on flip (such as Marco Rubio in this game). But when it's hidden text that specifies how roles interact with particular factions of scum, I think it should remain hidden. IMO, the flip should give a general idea of what happens, but not reveal specific factions or roles as existing. I do think that if there's additional hidden text to a role that is not revealed, the players in the game SHOULD be made aware that more will revealed at the end of the game about the role, but not the specifics?

What originally made me think of this is that Timmah got screwed by Curtis's flip in my Zelda game. I really had no reason to out Timmah, but I made the roles before the game started and I never anticipated a non-killing SK. It's custom here to reveal all information associated with flips, so I did. But I think it limits the design elements to a game.

Any feedback on this idea?

yeah i have seen and am a proponent of multiple layers of hidden text. the only thing i don't like is a death miller. as in a town player that scans as scum but flips as vanilla and only flips as scanning as scum post game. not sure i have ever seen it in play, its on one of the bastard mod lists i came across when googling for roles in the past.

BadgerMcBeaver @ 12/5/2017 23:12

im317 @ 12/5/2017 22:42 Buffy and i really put mafia behind the 8 ball to start with by taking them out night 1 and 2. which is funny because i complained about her killing mafia night 1 after a mafia member had just been lynched, then went right out and did the same. thought in my defense how could i know Curtis was mafia? his accidentally throwing Nofo under the bus made him look very town. I never asked you in the other thread, but you made some reference to me clearing Curtis with Mason info. I'm interested to know what post you're referring to, because I don't think I did? But I prolly miscommunicated.

no clue. maybe i got confused about you 'clearing' someone else with Sock's info? i kind of stopped paying attention to the game not long after i died, so i could have easily made mistakes in post game discussion.

im317 @ 12/5/2017 23:30

yeah i have seen and am a proponent of multiple layers of hidden text. the only thing i don't like is a death miller. as in a town player that scans as scum but flips as vanilla and only flips as scanning as scum post game. not sure i have ever seen it in play, its on one of the bastard mod lists i came across when googling for roles in the past.

I think a Miller's flip could reveal that it will receive the wrong scan on Town Investigation roles, and just leave it at that? That way, it's clear what their role was, but gives no information about what exact town roles or mafia roles exist.

BadgerMcBeaver @ 12/5/2017 21:34

im317 @ 12/5/2017 23:30 yeah i have seen and am a proponent of multiple layers of hidden text. the only thing i don't like is a death miller. as in a town player that scans as scum but flips as vanilla and only flips as scanning as scum post game. not sure i have ever seen it in play, its on one of the bastard mod lists i came across when googling for roles in the past. I think a Miller's flip could reveal that it will receive the wrong scan on Town Investigation roles, and just leave it at that? That way, it's clear what their role was, but gives no information about what exact town roles or mafia roles exist.

Yeah I definitely do agree with you here, Badger. I think it was a bit of an oversight on my part to not eliminate the part of the hidden text that revealed there was a mafia role cop as well, but at the same time I definitely don't think this is the sole reason Merc was lynched. But I would agree that it's something to be careful with. This is one of the mistakes I was referring to in my "The End" thread. That said, I don't really think it's something I should torn apart for considering it didn't outright out a person, it was just a really inconvenient time for farlig to flip with that specific info. But yeah, I definitely think it was an oversight, I'll be the first to admit that.

BadgerMcBeaver @ 12/5/2017 21:26

Mercator @ 12/5/2017 20:08 Just a little amazed that the second longest surviving mafia player who got lynched for arguably a mod mistake made HOL. You forgot Vlady claiming 3rd party to get himself lynched (: IMO this isn't really a mod mistake. It's very standard for mods to hidden reveal text upon role flips, so I don't think you should be arguing against it. Especially since cop is a really good town claim that you kinda had in your back pocket. Modding is a hard job and I think Maddie did a good job on balance of this game, especially considering scum almost won with such a town dominant early game. But that does bring up an interesting question. I think as mods in general we should be willing to differentiate between hidden text that reveals itself upon flip, and hidden text that reveals itself upon game ending. Scum already has the odds stacked against them in general IMO with this claim heavy meta that we've established, and hidden text usually works against them. If it's hidden text that defines the entire role, then I agree it should be revealed on flip (such as Marco Rubio in this game). But when it's hidden text that specifies how roles interact with particular factions of scum, I think it should remain hidden. IMO, the flip should give a general idea of what happens, but not reveal specific factions or roles as existing. I do think that if there's additional hidden text to a role that is not revealed, the players in the game SHOULD be made aware that more will revealed at the end of the game about the role, but not the specifics? What originally made me think of this is that Timmah got screwed by Curtis's flip in my Zelda game. I really had no reason to out Timmah, but I made the roles before the game started and I never anticipated a non-killing SK. It's custom here to reveal all information associated with flips, so I did. But I think it limits the design elements to a game. Any feedback on this idea?

Basically if you bastardize roles you should/have to have hidden text, like with the SK duo and Vlady.

Farlig's was more of a mod note to self and revealed way too much.
That part of Farlig's role was pretty much unnecessary too IMO.

Maddie @ 12/5/2017 21:39

BadgerMcBeaver @ 12/5/2017 21:34 im317 @ 12/5/2017 23:30 yeah i have seen and am a proponent of multiple layers of hidden text. the only thing i don't like is a death miller. as in a town player that scans as scum but flips as vanilla and only flips as scanning as scum post game. not sure i have ever seen it in play, its on one of the bastard mod lists i came across when googling for roles in the past. I think a Miller's flip could reveal that it will receive the wrong scan on Town Investigation roles, and just leave it at that? That way, it's clear what their role was, but gives no information about what exact town roles or mafia roles exist. Yeah I definitely do agree with you here, Badger. I think it was a bit of an oversight on my part to not eliminate the part of the hidden text that revealed there was a mafia role cop as well, but at the same time I definitely don't think this is the sole reason Merc was lynched. But I would agree that it's something to be careful with. This is one of the mistakes I was referring to in my "The End" thread. That said, I don't really think it's something I should torn apart for considering it didn't outright out a person, it was just a really inconvenient time for farlig to flip with that specific info. But yeah, I definitely think it was an oversight, I'll be the first to admit that.

"You will show up as “mafia goon” to town"
Reads: There is only a role cop for town, no cop.

Mercator @ 13/5/2017 0:14

BadgerMcBeaver @ 12/5/2017 21:26 Mercator @ 12/5/2017 20:08 Just a little amazed that the second longest surviving mafia player who got lynched for arguably a mod mistake made HOL. You forgot Vlady claiming 3rd party to get himself lynched (: IMO this isn't really a mod mistake. It's very standard for mods to hidden reveal text upon role flips, so I don't think you should be arguing against it. Especially since cop is a really good town claim that you kinda had in your back pocket. Modding is a hard job and I think Maddie did a good job on balance of this game, especially considering scum almost won with such a town dominant early game. But that does bring up an interesting question. I think as mods in general we should be willing to differentiate between hidden text that reveals itself upon flip, and hidden text that reveals itself upon game ending. Scum already has the odds stacked against them in general IMO with this claim heavy meta that we've established, and hidden text usually works against them. If it's hidden text that defines the entire role, then I agree it should be revealed on flip (such as Marco Rubio in this game). But when it's hidden text that specifies how roles interact with particular factions of scum, I think it should remain hidden. IMO, the flip should give a general idea of what happens, but not reveal specific factions or roles as existing. I do think that if there's additional hidden text to a role that is not revealed, the players in the game SHOULD be made aware that more will revealed at the end of the game about the role, but not the specifics? What originally made me think of this is that Timmah got screwed by Curtis's flip in my Zelda game. I really had no reason to out Timmah, but I made the roles before the game started and I never anticipated a non-killing SK. It's custom here to reveal all information associated with flips, so I did. But I think it limits the design elements to a game. Any feedback on this idea? Basically if you bastardize roles you should/have to have hidden text, like with the SK duo and Vlady. Farlig's was more of a mod note to self and revealed way too much. That part of Farlig's role was pretty much unnecessary too IMO.

Are you seriously arguing that you were more screwed by hidden text than JJ?

You can argue all you want that farlig's flip is what screwed you over, but in the end you're the one who scanned the outed vig.

I'm sorry you feel screwed but I'm a human being, this was my first time hosting, and you can't expect it to be perfect.

BadgerMcBeaver @ 12/5/2017 22:30

Mercator @ 13/5/2017 0:14 BadgerMcBeaver @ 12/5/2017 21:26 Mercator @ 12/5/2017 20:08 Just a little amazed that the second longest surviving mafia player who got lynched for arguably a mod mistake made HOL. You forgot Vlady claiming 3rd party to get himself lynched (: IMO this isn't really a mod mistake. It's very standard for mods to hidden reveal text upon role flips, so I don't think you should be arguing against it. Especially since cop is a really good town claim that you kinda had in your back pocket. Modding is a hard job and I think Maddie did a good job on balance of this game, especially considering scum almost won with such a town dominant early game. But that does bring up an interesting question. I think as mods in general we should be willing to differentiate between hidden text that reveals itself upon flip, and hidden text that reveals itself upon game ending. Scum already has the odds stacked against them in general IMO with this claim heavy meta that we've established, and hidden text usually works against them. If it's hidden text that defines the entire role, then I agree it should be revealed on flip (such as Marco Rubio in this game). But when it's hidden text that specifies how roles interact with particular factions of scum, I think it should remain hidden. IMO, the flip should give a general idea of what happens, but not reveal specific factions or roles as existing. I do think that if there's additional hidden text to a role that is not revealed, the players in the game SHOULD be made aware that more will revealed at the end of the game about the role, but not the specifics? What originally made me think of this is that Timmah got screwed by Curtis's flip in my Zelda game. I really had no reason to out Timmah, but I made the roles before the game started and I never anticipated a non-killing SK. It's custom here to reveal all information associated with flips, so I did. But I think it limits the design elements to a game. Any feedback on this idea? Basically if you bastardize roles you should/have to have hidden text, like with the SK duo and Vlady. Farlig's was more of a mod note to self and revealed way too much. That part of Farlig's role was pretty much unnecessary too IMO. Are you seriously arguing that you were more screwed by hidden text than JJ?

?
Hidden from player: If the shrink finds you, you will be converted to a town vanilla and adopt a town win condition.

JJ wasn't screwed by hidden text at all Tom, she got screwed for obviously being the other half of the SK role.

Maddie @ 12/5/2017 22:32

You can argue all you want that farlig's flip is what screwed you over, but in the end you're the one who scanned the outed vig. I'm sorry you feel screwed but I'm a human being, this was my first time hosting, and you can't expect it to be perfect.

I didn't even care about it at all, I was quite relieved I got a quick death.

It's just amazing you'd put this into your HOL:
"was surprised at how long he got away with his town cop phase, but after a while I think laziness and being unwilling to read crucial parts of the day phases got him backed into a corner and town was able to call his bullshit."


Do I have to explain to you why I took the risk of claiming to have scanned Zach too?

I just mean that she got way more screwed by a role flip than you did. I guess you were more screwed by the hidden text specifically.

I was trying to speak to the way that roleflips would be delivered as a whole. I think we could potentially improve upon it as a community, and it would help combat the mass claiming situation we've encountered the last few games because it would make it easier for scum to lie.

Also, just as a side note. One thing that I've realized as a mod is that you are just desperately trying to get shit done correctly at day beginning and end. It's a lot of work, and it's easy to make a mistake which could potentially ruin the game. You aren't really considering how your role flips are going to impact individual roles and their real/fake claims when you post them because you are focused on not making a mistake.

Hosting was a lot harder than I anticipated, and I think people should give hosts more of a break.

BadgerMcBeaver @ 12/5/2017 22:43

I just mean that she got way more screwed by a role flip than you did. I guess you were more screwed by the hidden text specifically. I was trying to speak to the way that roleflips would be delivered as a whole. I think we could potentially improve upon it as a community, and it would help combat the mass claiming situation we've encountered the last few games because it would make it easier for scum to lie. Also, just as a side note. One thing that I've realized as a mod is that you are just desperately trying to get shit done correctly at day beginning and end. It's a lot of work, and it's easy to make a mistake which could potentially ruin the game. You aren't really considering how your role flips are going to impact individual roles and their real/fake claims when you post them because you are focused on not making a mistake. Hosting was a lot harder than I anticipated, and I think people should give hosts more of a break.

She got screwed by having her night pm revealed and I had scanned her too so we would have been able to redirect her to have 2 kills if she didn't get lynched anyway.
If the only thing revealed in the flip was his role name it still would have meant Buffy's demise.


I actually think Maddie did a very good job for her first time, with very little help from Vic apparently.
Actually a better job than some experienced hosts (:

Thank you Merc.

Also one thing y'all had no idea about was how hard I had to work to get Matt's info. He did NOT understand the importance of his role. He probably had the strongest pro-town role of this entire game... it was so frustrating as the vanilla mason having to pull teeth to get his investigative results.